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Gray wolves in Montana.

Their lives are really difficult because of how difficult it is to get food. The lifespan of a wolf is about 12 years, but in the wild, it’s about four. The most common causes of death are starvation and wolves killing one another, and when they’re killing one another, they’re typically fighting over food.

When is an animal endangered?

Benji Jones

Gray wolves received federal protection under the Endangered Species Act. Then wolves in most states lost protection under the Trump administration. This new ruling restores those protections. How did we get here?

John Vucetich

The big picture is pretty simple. We, as an American people and the Fish and Wildlife Service, haven’t figured out what it means for a species to be endangered or not. And if you don’t understand what it means to be endangered, then you can’t reliably rule whether particular species like wolves are endangered or not.

We know, very clearly, that gray squirrels and rabbits are not endangered. We know that tigers are endangered. The question is really about where the boundary lies.

That’s what was at stake in the court case — and that’s what’s at stake with any future decisions about wolves. In a very narrow sense, wolves are re-listed because of a judge’s decision. That’s because a few environmental organizations sued to restore the protections.

Benji Jones

How do we still not know where to draw that line? The Endangered Species Act has been around for nearly half a century.

John Vucetich

From one perspective, it’s absolutely baffling. When the Endangered Species Act was created in 1973, among the first things it did was list species that had already been considered endangered for a long time. It just created a category for them. Many of these species were in such a dire condition that there wasn’t really a need to know where the line was.

Benji Jones

How do you understand the question of what makes a species endangered? And where do wolves fit in?

John Vucetich

In the last couple of hundred years, in particular, humans have not done well by quite a few species. So, the question is: When have we done enough harm to say, “That’s enough, and corrective action is required”?

 Courtesy of R. Peterson

John Vucetich, a renowned wolf expert and biology professor at Michigan Technological University.

The slightly more technical aspect here involves a debate about the legal definition of an endangered species. It is, verbatim, “a species that is at risk of extinction throughout all or a significant portion of its range.” It’s this phrase that has really captured a lot of attention.

Over the past 15 to 20 years, the Fish and Wildlife Service has made decisions that hinge on its interpretation of that definition. And this lawsuit’s concern was basically that the FWS hasn’t yet answered the question: What is an endangered species? This court decision reinforces the need for that.

Benji Jones

Do you think that the gray wolf is still at risk of extinction?

John Vucetich

Wolves absolutely do not fit the definition of a recovered species. Wolves, unquestionably, are to be considered legally endangered.

There are a lot of wolves in the world, and a good number of them are in the Lower 48. But a species isn’t considered endangered only if it’s at imminent risk of extinction. It’s about when have humans done enough damage to a species that corrective action is required.

Go back to that legal definition — that language, “throughout all or a significant portion of its range.” It’s the basis for asking the question: How much damage is too much? In the Lower 48, wolves currently occupy about 15 percent of their historic range. It’s really hard to imagine that you could lose 85 percent of the species’ range and say, “That’s no big deal.”

How gray wolves divided America

Benji Jones

It seems like few animals are as controversial as gray wolves in the US these days. How did they become so politicized?

John Vucetich

If you look at sociological data, wolves are not controversial. The Endangered Species Act is also not at all controversial. Even people who self-identify as Republicans or politically conservative have really strong, positive views about the Act.

The controversy does not come from constituents. It comes from special interest groups leaning hard on members of Congress. One would be gun rights advocates. They’ve decided that wolf recovery is a bad idea. Land rights advocates, too, have tended to take a strong position against the Act, more so than wolves alone. Farmers and ranchers also have a strong lobbying group.

Benji Jones

Why are these groups so against wolves?

John Vucetich

The intensity and the vitriol doesn’t match anyone’s real-world experience of what wolves actually do. Wolves have long been symbols for all that’s good — and all that’s evil — in the world.

I think they may have been co-opted into the culture wars. The boundaries don’t always make sense — what do abortion, immigration, climate change, and wolves have in common? There’s also the so-called rural-urban divide. Rural people have a tendency to be less supportive of wolves, which maps onto some elements of the culture wars as well.

 Getty Images

An injured moose in Isle Royale National Park wearing a radio collar.

Benji Jones

What has working with wolves taught you about saving species?

John Vucetich

My greatest understanding of humans is through and about wolves. Some people love them and some people hate them, and my greatest interest is to understand why we are the way we are. But I’ve learned that no matter what side you’re on, we have a deep inability to explain ourselves to each other.

Benji Jones

Has that made you rethink the larger goals of nature conservation?

John Vucetich

Without a doubt. There are two big shortcomings in conservation, and one is that not even conservation professionals agree about what it means to conserve nature.

Some people are interested in conservation for its own sake: There are species out there that we’ve done poorly by and we should conserve them no matter what value they are to humans, even if it means impairing human value. In contrast, there are people who believe we need to conserve nature because our well-being depends on it.

Other people want to conserve nature but don’t want to harm any individual animals to get there. This becomes important when it comes to invasive species. A lot of invasive species management is about killing them. There’s no agreement about what conservation means and what ultimately motivates it.

Benji Jones

Is there a “right” reason to conserve nature? Where do you fall?

John Vucetich

I haven’t decided. If you are inflexible and say human well-being should always trump conservation, the future is very bleak for biodiversity. Whereas if conservation should always trump human well-being, there’s an extraordinarily bleak future for human well- being.

Benji Jones

If wolves recover across their historic range, there will likely be even more backlash. How do we learn to live with these predators?

John Vucetich

Most people don’t have to do anything. Even if you live in wolf country, you’re not likely to see one or be directly impacted by one. And if you are among the few people who do have a chance of encountering them, either through livestock depredation or through the loss of a pet, you just have to know a few things.

There’s extremely good advice for how to take care of your pets, such as keeping your dog on a leash. There are also lots of husbandry practices that are known to reduce the risk of losing livestock. You can’t make it zero in all cases. We just have to decide to create systems that compensate farmers in a reasonable way.

We live on a very crowded planet. That crowding creates conflicts between humans, and between humans and biodiversity. We have to learn how to coexist and give up some of the things that we want so that other people can get by.

This is right and it’s bad that being 90% vegan or vegetarian means that you’re no longer in the club.

Would be a lot more valuable if 50% of people were vegan half the time than if just 2% of the population were vegan 100% of the time. https://t.co/ahZFvOr29s

— Jerusalem (@JerusalemDemsas) February 7, 2022

The more purist sect of the vegan movement would disagree with that idea and disapprove of Adams’s occasional fish consumption, arguing that any support of America’s cruel and polluting factory farm system is unjust. But most who advocate for veganism long enough begin to lower their expectations of people and institutions after learning just how difficult it is to influence one person’s diet, let alone the corporate and public policies that shape how people eat.

Loosening the rules of veganism, perhaps by elevating the fuzzy term “plant-based,” which Adams is more fond of using to describe himself than “vegan,” is a way to welcome more people into the club — hopefully inspiring more people to eat more vegan food even if not 100 percent of the time. Imagine how much smaller the climate movement would be if, to join, members could never travel by plane or buy new clothes (or eat a burger, for that matter).

From the early 1990s to the early 2000s, the US vegan movement did primarily focus on a 100 percent, all-or-nothing approach to eating. That approach generated more attention for the cause, but didn’t have much of an effect on broader food politics: Meat consumption continued to rise while the share of vegans and vegetarians went largely unchanged.

Even though Americans tell pollsters they don’t want animals abused for food, it’s simply too hard for most people to become and stay vegan in a world not built for veganism. And most people are unwilling to pay a premium for the tiny sliver of animal products produced in higher-welfare conditions — that is, if such animal welfare claims can even be trusted.

So, over the last decade, much of the vegan movement embraced less-meat campaigns like Meatless Monday, Vegan Before 6 pm, Reducetarianism, and Weekday Vegetarianism. One group simply advocates that people stop eating chickens, since they suffer disproportionately compared to cattle and pigs and make up 95 percent of land animals raised for food. In other words, a no-chicken diet has nearly the same impact on animal welfare as a vegetarian diet.

That fact should call into question the utility of labels like “vegetarian” and “vegan,” since they fail to fully capture the real-world impact of food choices. Rather, thinking more about the animal welfare, environmental, and health effects of different animal products, and the quantity in which they’re consumed, is more useful — though this approach doesn’t slot nicely into a simple label.

 Amanda Northrop/Vox

Because chickens are so much smaller than pigs and cows, more chickens suffer for the food we eat.

Whether this shift to more nuanced less-meat messaging has had a significant effect is also up for debate — Americans continue to eat record amounts of meat, though they’re also eating record amounts of plant- based alternatives (and tofu).

But the “less meat, more plants” messaging certainly helped make the conversation more palatable to Americans, only about 5 percent of whom identify as vegetarian but around a quarter of whom say they are cutting back on meat.

Aside from messaging, there’s no shortage of changes that could be easily made in grocery stores, restaurants, and other places where people eat that would influence them to consume more plant-based food, whether or not they think of themselves as vegetarian or vegan. Those changes include notes on restaurant menus that explain the environmental impact of meat, selling meat and dairy alternatives next to animal products in grocery stores, placing vegetarian dishes next to meat-based dishes on menus, and making plant-based food more affordable.

But to really move the needle on reducing meat consumption — something humanity must do if we’re to get anywhere close to reaching Paris climate agreement targets — we need to focus on politicians’ platforms more than their own food choices. That means implementing policies to modify meat-heavy menus with more plant-based foods, something Adams is bent on accomplishing.

How Adams is trying to change the way New Yorkers eat

Both progressives and animal welfare supporters have serious gripes with some of Adams’s policy proposals, such as bringing back solitary confinement to Rikers Island, rolling back cash bail reform, and installing machines that drown city rats in an alcohol and vinegar solution. (Notably, Adams has spoken more about going vegan for his health and the environment, rather than for animal welfare.)

At the same time, it’s difficult to find another politician who’s as willing to challenge America’s unsustainable meat habit that other politicians, including many of his fellow Democrats, help perpetuate.

As Brooklyn borough president, Adams advocated for Meatless Monday in 15 Brooklyn public schools (which was implemented), and worked with then-Mayor de Blasio to bring it to all 1,700 New York City public schools.

    <img alt=" " src="https://cdn.vox-

cdn.com/thumbor/ugAReTxp5AJRrmoGwvBiihvVWis=/800x0/filters:no_upscale()/cdn.vox- cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/23233213/GettyImages_1135200158.jpg" /> Spencer Platt/Getty Images

  <figcaption>Cafeteria workers prepare a meatless lunch during a visit by then-New York Mayor Bill de Blasio and 
Schools Chancellor Richard Carranza at PS130, a Brooklyn public school, for an announcement about Meatless Mondays.

He also advocated for Meatless Monday at 11 public hospitals, a plant- based nutrition program at Bellevue Hospital (which was also implemented and is now expanding city- wide), and committed $1 million to urban agriculture. Now as mayor he’s phasing in “Vegan Fridays” for the city’s school lunch program.

Of course, Vegan Fridays was criticized, too. Some noted that meals weren’t totally vegan, or they weren’t sufficiently healthy. Implementing city-wide changes to how citizens eat can be just as tough as change at the individual level, but I hope more of us give it a try — even if we do it imperfectly.

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